Curse

Fyre Brand · Jun 01, 2006, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lite Sabre

Hi everyone - this is my first post on guildwarsguru, so hope this is the right way to do it :-)

I know Arlan, who has recently been banned and I think I have an idea as to the reason. On April 28th at 22:59, me, Arlan and another mate Missy arrived at Elonas Reach. What did we see?

Dozens of monk bots all standing at the merchant, one on top of the other. Monks as far as the eye could see and none of them talking. At the time I recall making a comment that they looked just like Arlan and he even ran over to them to compare himself.

Now, I am 100% certain that they have mistaken him for a bot. Either some well intentioned person did a screen shot and sent it in and Arlan was in it, or ANET ran some automatic system to pick up on monks in there at a certain time - well I can't be sure.

All, I can be sure of is that I have screen shot evidence of Arlan being in my team and us all looking at an army of duplicated monks as far as the eye could see. Its time stamped, so thats why I know exactly when we were there.

I completely agree that bots and cheats of all types should be combated, but their reaction flies in the face of the comments in their legal section that says that they have no intention of banning large numbers of players, and banning is a last course of action. Banning seems to be the first course of action and is in complete breach of their own advertised terms and conditions. I believe such an action may in fact be illegal if you were to take it to the extreme.

There has to be a better way of targetting cheats without impacting upon players whose accounts have been active for 10+ months and have played in excess of 1000 hours and have purchased their accounts fairly. Not only that these players have introduced others to the game and have actually helped ANET make money.

Come on ANET reinstate them now - you developed what I and many others would consider to be the best game we've ever seen, yet don't seem capable of identifying an automaton from a human player!

That's odd because occasionally I have farmed Elona's as well as doing the mission/bonus with guildies. I recently went and farmed 5 mino horns with my monk so I could craft a Necro's Bone staff. I stood next to the other farmers (both legit and botters) at the storage agent and merchant and I haven't had my account banned for that.

So many times people have posted on these forums how they've been wrongfully banned. You never know if it's true or if they've cheated, been abusive or traded with gold/item sales company. I really hope that you're telling the truth. A part of me really doubts it, but none of us can ever know for sure. If you are, then I hope you get your account reinstated, if not I hope they ban any of you that bought gold or items from people who sell for real money.

Tickle · Jun 01, 2006, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fyre Brand

So many times people have posted on these forums how they've been wrongfully banned. You never know if it's true or if they've cheated, been abusive or traded with gold/item sales company. I really hope that you're telling the truth. A part of me really doubts it, but none of us can ever know for sure. If you are, then I hope you get your account reinstated, if not I hope they ban any of you that bought gold or items from people who sell for real money.

I can honestly say I have no idea why I got banned, all I really ask is why?

I have played for over 2000 hours, I have helped people with builds, I have ran people places not expecting payment, I have given away countless items to guildies and even new people to the game, I have given countless materials to strangers just to help them get armour, I have never used a bot nor have I ever sold anything from GW online..

All I simply ask is why?

SAQ · Jun 01, 2006, 03:33 AM // 03:33

My 2nd GW account was banned for similar reasons as above, mistaken identity!

I was playing my Canthan Mo/W (not a 55 monk) and was at Drok's Int 1 to buy some skills with my friend, (we were in international district because my account was Taiwanese region and his was American).

That's all I did that I think they got me confused with all the other Mo/W bots, I never bot, I never ebay and I rarely play with PUGs. I have contacted GW(NCSOFT) Taiwan about this wrongful banning. I hope it can be reverted. Looking at my history will tell you my account wasn't botting.... sigh...

Arangja · Jun 01, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

I tend to agree with this stament made by Fyre brand, and once again I'm not trying to knock anyone or call anyone a cheeter but on the other how would we ever know. There are friend of Arlan that say they have proof that they were in a party together

Good that sounds like evidance, I just don't think that Anet will just ban ppl for no obvious reason and without some concrete evidance. Ok I also know that mistakes can be made and with any action like this there might be collateral dammage.

Keep us posted on your progress plz

"That's odd because occasionally I have farmed Elona's as well as doing the mission/bonus with guildies. I recently went and farmed 5 mino horns with my monk so I could craft a Necro's Bone staff. I stood next to the other farmers (both legit and botters) at the storage agent and merchant and I haven't had my account banned for that.

So many times people have posted on these forums how they've been wrongfully banned. You never know if it's true or if they've cheated, been abusive or traded with gold/item sales company. I really hope that you're telling the truth. A part of me really doubts it, but none of us can ever know for sure. If you are, then I hope you get your account reinstated, if not I hope they ban any of you that bought gold or items from people who sell for real money."

Monskie The Monskervator · Jun 01, 2006, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arlan

While i completly agree with the banning of bots and various game cheats how can you be sure the correct account gets closed???
Whats the trigger / search criteria that flags an account to say - "bot" or "sells in game items for £2.40 on e-bay" or some such.
My point comes from the fact that after nearly 900 GW hours gaming the 'net of capture' (elite ranger skill) seems to have snagged a few innocents. Of which i am one!!! My has been closed for the selling live rule

A friend had his storage account banned a month or so back for something similar, no advance contact, no warning no nothing just permaban.
When he contacted them he was told that he had been selling for *real money* when you read the EULA it states that you can be banned by *association* with a farmer (whatever that means) ... or even if you are on the same pc network as someone who breaks the EULA you can be banned... basically they can ban whoever they want whenever they want.
It's tough for him, he had all his ecto's & shards on the account that he was saving up for a FoW set with... all gone no easy form of appeal no evidence as to exactly what he had done

It left me worried too as I (& others) have played our accounts from his pc occasionally... I have nothing against the banning of Genuine farm Bots... but perhaps they should instigate a form of appeal rather than just a ban?

Monskie The Monskervator · Jun 01, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arangja

You never know if it's true or if they've cheated, been abusive or traded with gold/item sales company. I really hope that you're telling the truth. A part of me really doubts it, but none of us can ever know for sure. If you are, then I hope you get your account reinstated, if not I hope they ban any of you that bought gold or items from people who sell for real money."

Well, I for one would not know for definite that someone I am trading with is a farmer... you can make an educated guess, but at the end of it all, it's just a guess... If I walked into a district & wanted to sell something how would you know I had got it legitimately or if I had used a farm bot program?
you wouldn't.
I can understand the whole software tracing patterns of behaviour thing, but I really think that some form of appeal would be great...... after all a *real* farmer would find it easier just to buy another account than to go to the effort of filing a petition against the banning & spending lots of time & effort on forums complaining about it!

Guitary Boy · Jun 01, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

I agree with it being unfair, a friend of mine who does'nt even have a monk, let alone 55 hp has been banned. But if you think about it, when 2000 people get banned you have to expect some errors, no one is perfect....not even anet

But yeah....you have to expect around 100 or more out of those 2000 are unfair bans, half of whom i doubt will get thier account back, quite a few of who may have losts ecto's/shards/cash beyond what you can think, simply by playing for a long time (fair farming also). Imagine how that must feel, 2000 hours of your life down the drain because of a mistake, and i know for a fact that some people play games like these because they have issues (anger problems ect) Short periods of time on games are actually reccomended by doctors to calm you down unless they get aggrovating. Now, put your self in the position of some one thats been playing for 5 months +, and they get back from work/school ect and they find thier account banned.....

, i mean to any one thats gotta piss you off large style for the next few hours.
But hey, mistakes happen and i quite a few of those people will get thier accounts back and it will be like it never happened, and even better, less bots

And the less bots there are, the less mistakes there are in trying to ban them, oh yeah, ecto's go up up up

Siddious · Jun 01, 2006, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Keep the bot bannings up anet, pwn those noobs

/bow

lyra_song · Jun 01, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Section 3 of the Guild Wars EULA:

Subject to the terms of this Agreement, NC Interactive grants to you, for your personal use only, a non-exclusive, revocable, nontransferable (except as permitted in Section 4(a)) license to use the Service, and a non-exclusive, revocable, nontransferable (except as permitted in Section 4(a)) license to use the Software in connection with the Service, without charge except for new Chapters which will be charged on a prepaid basis according to Section 5.

Note the bolded word: REVOCABLE

Taken from section 7:

You may not sell or auction any Guild Wars accounts, characters, items, coin or copyrighted material, nor may you assist others in doing so.

Does buying in game weapons (obtained by farming bots) with in game money, (which in turn will be sold on eBay), constitute as assisting?

Loviatar · Jun 01, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Does buying in game weapons (obtained by farming bots) with in game money, (which in turn will be sold on eBay), constitute as assisting?

i think it has to do with how often you do it and what you do with the weapon.

if you buy a bunch and give them to a known seller again and again it might raise a flag (or 2 or 3)

if you buy one for personal use or a gift to a guildie i dont think flags are raised as they track over time.

remember that they announced in oct 05 they were tracking networks for future banning so it is repeated behavior that attracts attention.

Demesis · Jun 01, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Section 3 of the Guild Wars EULA:

Subject to the terms of this Agreement, NC Interactive grants to you, for your personal use only, a non-exclusive, revocable, nontransferable (except as permitted in Section 4(a)) license to use the Service, and a non-exclusive, revocable, nontransferable (except as permitted in Section 4(a)) license to use the Software in connection with the Service, without charge except for new Chapters which will be charged on a prepaid basis according to Section 5.

Note the bolded word: REVOCABLE

Taken from section 7:

You may not sell or auction any Guild Wars accounts, characters, items, coin or copyrighted material, nor may you assist others in doing so.

Does buying in game weapons (obtained by farming bots) with in game money, (which in turn will be sold on eBay), constitute as assisting?

Not to mention that you don't know if the guy you're trading with is a bot... We get victimized by either the botters or Anet.

We, the players are cornered

lyra_song · Jun 01, 2006, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demesis

Not to mention that you don't know if the guy you're trading with is a bot... We get victimized by either the botters or Anet.

We, the players are cornered

I have a feeling is how some more honest players are getting tagged. Repeatedly buying from known botting networks adds them to the network.

Jeremy Untouchable · Jun 01, 2006, 03:59 PM // 15:59

I have stood in the tower of farming monks in elona before,oops, i will NEVER do that again. Dont want to be mistaken for a bot. One thing i do when leaveing talus chute to farm tundra giants, is bow. never see nonhumans doing stuff like that. i allso chat wile in towns.What i'm saying is take steps to insure you arnt confused with these bots.

Vahn Roi · Jun 01, 2006, 05:19 PM // 17:19

How long after a "repeated behavior" has been flagged does one become banned?

Lite Sabre · Jun 01, 2006, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Hi all,

To follow up my previous comments:

It is my belief that it is possible for an innocent player with a monk to approach a group of monk bots at the same time that someone takes a screen shot to report the botting incident. The innocent, none-bot player could then be banned just because they happened to stand next to them - which I may point out is not an illegal action.

Now, I have no clue how bots work - probably they record the keystrokes from the first farming expedition and then play the sequence back continuously???? It should be possible therefore to automatically track such activity - i.e. accounts where repeated keystrokes occur over and over again. But, I don't think in a game with 1 Million active players they can do that very easily - not without impacting on game performance. None of us actually know what ANET do, because they don't tell us (which is understandable if they want to catch the cheats).

I think it more likely that ANET could well rely on visual reporting of such incidents in which case it is possible that Arlan and others could have been unlucky enough to be screen shot in the vicinity of the bots. Those who have walked past a bot and not been banned - well you weren't unlucky enough to be screen shot at that time.

I do have a plan - call 'Bot, or not a Bot' - This involves sending out an experimental none-bot character - standing it next to the bots, screen capture the image using another player and complaining to ANET about the bots we have observed and see how long before our experimental account gets banned - I reckon it would get banned for sure!

This would unfortunately indicate that the comment in the GW's legal section that there is no cause for appeal because of the indepth research they do is a false comment. After all standing there looking dumb isn't against the rules of the game :-(

We will be submitting my screen shot - which clearly shows Arlan in my team at the time. This is also time / date stamped and can be verified as authentic by at least 3 players. This happens to be evidence, something that ANET don't produce.

The 'Bot, or not a Bot' experiment will be employed as a last resort. I will keep you posted on how things proceed.

As a final statement - I still think this game is brilliant and the people who run it are doing a real good job. It is unfortunate that in banning cheats that sometimes ANET target the innocent by accident - I just want them to reinstate those whose very willingness to step forward and make themselves known to the wider gaming community goes a long way to proving their innocence - afterall if they were bots, they would be off obtaining another dodgy account to continue botting from!

Arlan · Jun 01, 2006, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vahn Roi

How long after a "repeated behavior" has been flagged does one become banned?

Hi
Well - i was given no pre-ban warnings - and up to now have had no real information from GW Support on how far back my supposed 'infraction' was.
Did i buy/sell from/to someone several months ago who maybe regular farms and possibly came into contact with a bot?
How far down the line connecting buyers/sellers have Anet looked and banned?
Without specific answers from Anet - how can we protect ourselves (or prove innocence) from future wide sweeping 'bot' banning.

Lyra - you raise some very valid points most of which i agree with and some of which i have included in my ongoing Support discussion - however - yes, the licence is revokable but surely not without specific proof - and visible proof at that - .

I would love to see the first response (or the banning message) from Anet saying something like - "you have broken Rule 7 in that you collected in game items for real world selling - ie: on Thurs 25th Feb at 11.46hrs in Ascalon Int 1 you 'sold' 100 shards for 1 gold piece"A specific reason is given - thereby allowing 'innocents' to argue their case fairly.
I presume genuine botters would'nt bother because they know they would never win a case.

The fight continues!!!

mrmojo · Jun 01, 2006, 08:03 PM // 20:03

good riddance

twicky_kid · Jun 01, 2006, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Botting in GW is not really profitable now that Factions was released. If you get your account banned you will have to buy each chapter again for every account banned.

I think GW is a game that might be able to pull off a bot free environment after a few more chapters.

Tickle · Jun 01, 2006, 08:37 PM // 20:37

40 hours after the banning and still no word from support, I have since emailed them again. Here I am a pure innocent in this case and they aren't even following through with emails. Unlike these botters who do sell stuff on online auctions I cant afford to just go out and buy GW/GWF again BECAUSE I DON'T SELL ON ONLINE AUCTIONS NOR DO I USE 3RD PARTY PROGRAMMES. Not only that but I also got bills to pay that come before any leisure activity I might involve myself in. Perhaps in hindsight I should of sold all my perfect weapons online but I aren't like that, I play within the rules and got banned for doing so, whats up Anet, surely you can contact those of us protesting our innocence instead of ignoring the issue. It's easy, check the support emails and reply to them... plz, I encourage you to do so..

Tickle · Jun 01, 2006, 08:50 PM // 20:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmojo

good riddance

If you haven't got anything of interest to add to the conversation please keep your thoughts to yourself instead of trying to get your post count higher through silly posts that do nothing but irritate those of us trying to protest our innocence. I'm sure you meant it in jest but in this conversation I honestly dont think its a laughing matter.
Anet has honestly screwed up here by banning innocents and now that they have, they aren't interested in what we have to say to prove our innocence. An automated response said they would reply in 24 hours.. from my previous post that time is nearly doubled.